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triceratops · Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 7856 Location: The other Nevada

Back in the 90's when congress was debating the anti "assault weapon" legislation it was pointed out by the Wall Street Journal, quoting state police statistics, that more people were killed nation-wide by sticks and clubs than by all long guns of all types and for all reasons. The guns deaths included accidental shootings as well as deliberate. Deaths by stick were pretty much all homicides. Kinda hard to legislate against a stick but going after weapons that "look" nasty gave congress a nice warm fuzzy feeling. Didn't do much about the illegal flow of weapons however. Most laws that aren't enforced never do.

robhainer · Joined: 03 May 2010 Posts: 2735 Location: Dallas, GA, USA

More people die from drunken driving than from gun violence, so I guess we need to ban alcohol and cars. It's all about saving lives, right?

farbled · Joined: 12 Aug 2006 Posts: 360 Location: Vancouver, BC

robhainer · Joined: 03 May 2010 Posts: 2735 Location: Dallas, GA, USA

Times and situations change, so the Constitution can be changed. But it's really difficult to change it. People make the mistake of thinking Democracy in the U.S. is about majority rule, when it's not, thankfully. It takes 2/3 of the House and Senate, then 3/5 of all state legislatures to approve an amendment.

The founders feared mob rule and put in safeguards to prevent the majority from running roughshod over the rights of minorities. It's not perfect, but it works most of the time.

ruxpriencdiam · Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:19 am

They can change laws all they want but it wont stop anyone from buying a gun if they really want one.

I can right now go to places where i can purchase a gun without any background check or waiting period so what did the law that was enacted stop me from doing?

Nothing!

chbaum · Joined: 19 Sep 2010 Posts: 386 Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Hmmm... don't know if I wanted to ignite that discussion again... As someone put it, I was merely astonished that our police fired only so few shots in a country of 80 million.

The reasons are vast, I guess. First and foremost, I think the bad guys don't have so many firearms at the ready here. Most attacks with guns are committed with illegal ones. These are a big problem, but obviously not as big as in other countries. Additionally, when I read about the police having shot someone, it's very often because they have been attacked with something else rather than a gun. There are a lot of knives, axes and poles involved, usually in neighborhood or domestic violence.

The murder rate of 250+ is somewhere in the middle of the list of countries, so Germany its not the safest place but far from the worst.

But I can't leave this discussion without at least giving my opinion... Indeed, the laws and mentality between Europe and the U.S. is VERY different. We are actually not supposed to have guns in our homes outside a vault. So defending our loved ones with a gun is absolutely out of the question! And it's good like that, I think.
The approach is sooo different, and it's so hard to explain... First, I wouldn't expect a burglar or trespasser to enter my home while I'm in. Of course that happens. But it's rare, because they want my money and nothing else. Second, they usually don't bring weapons, let alone guns. Third, I cannot imagine A BIT to take a life because someone trespassed. I simply can't. What kind of a thinking is that? Do you really consider KILLING a human being with a gun? It's so far off for me and everyone I know, we just cannot grasp it.

As an example: There actually was a guy who kept his licensed gun in the bedroom drawer. His 17 year-old son took it and killed 14 little children in a primary school with it. Yeah I know, they snap, and there are many reasons and many people and conditions to blame. But had his father kept that fuckin' piece in the vault like it's the law, it wouldn't have happened.

It's no use, I can't see the advantages. Yes, it's in your constitution, so the bad guys have guns and use them for bad things. That can't be changed. Your burglars probably do have guns with them. Something went wrong somewhen. But nobody ever tries to make it right or better. They just upgrade their arsenal. Both sides...

Best regards,

Christian

Mike Price · Joined: 06 Jun 2008 Posts: 2919 Location: South Wales

ruxpriencdiam · Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:32 am

But yet everyone drives a 2000-4000lb plus vehicle with a 20 gallon tank of a highly explosive and combustible liquid that can be turned into a bomb with a few minor adjustments.

Guns dont kill People kill just as cars dont kill people kill.

robhainer · Joined: 03 May 2010 Posts: 2735 Location: Dallas, GA, USA

Being Jewish, I find the whole idea of enlightened Germans difficult to swallow. If some of my distant relatives had guns, perhaps they might have survived to have some descendants in the United States. Here, they are guaranteed by law the ability to have guns to protect themselves from people who want to shoot them and bury them in a mass grave.

The right to bear arms is as much as about protecting yourself from a government out of control as it is from criminals.

Now, do you see the advantages?

ruxpriencdiam · Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:49 am

chbaum · Joined: 19 Sep 2010 Posts: 386 Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

You seem to mistrust your government and your constitution and law books quite a bit. I however trust in our democracy, and sincerely hope that something like the Third Reich dictatorship will never happen again anywhere. Our gun laws are partly based on our historical guilt. We must never forget it! But I think we must also support and trust in our system NOW. Because it's a good one. An armed population is not necessarily the problem. We've got millions of legal guns around (plus the illegal ones). But an armed population that is given the right to use these guns even in small incidents that don't require any (gun) violence, THAT is a problem.

Best regards,

Christian

robhainer · Joined: 03 May 2010 Posts: 2735 Location: Dallas, GA, USA

Someone breaking into your home isn't "minor."

chbaum · Joined: 19 Sep 2010 Posts: 386 Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

No, it's not. It's against the law, it violates my property and privacy. It's anti-social and mean. I would really HATE it and probably everyone who did it to me. But is my property, my privacy and my hurt feelings and pride worth killing a person? Do you REALLY think so? You just can't be serious! But maybe you are. I don't blame you, but I need to put our different cultures in contrast. For me and most people I know, it is that simple.

Of course, you'll never know how you react when someone threatens, hurts or kills your loved ones. We had cases where mothers brought guns to court and shot the rapist or murderer of their child. Maybe I would be able to do that. Maybe every human being would be. But since it's so difficult to get hold of a gun, I sincerely hope someone keeps me back. I don't want to have that upon my conscious. Never! I rather thrive on the thought that this guy gets life and ROTS in the hell of prison. And no, I wouldn't want capital punishment for him either. It's much worse for him to rot in the darkest and dirtiest hole we got for him than just being killed off.

Best regards,

Christian

robhainer · Joined: 03 May 2010 Posts: 2735 Location: Dallas, GA, USA

Well, there's no way to know if someone is breaking into your home to steal your TV or murder your family. So, yes, to protect my family, I'm very serious about using deadly force. Who wouldn't be? Personally, I don't understand why you would serve yourself up to someone without wanting to be able to protect yourself.

You also have to consider that the U.S. is a much larger country. Many of us live in suburban or rural areas where the police are more than 15 minutes away even if you dial 9-1-1. You can only rely on yourself for protection.

semmickphoto · Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:46 am

This whole gun discussion is moot. You'll never convince the other side of having it wrong. There will always be guns, there will always be violence, and there will always be people for and against the right to bear arms.

I wish the whole world would light up a joint and see how stupid this all this violence, in any form, really is.

End of.