Shutterstock Photographer Forum :: View topic - Vectors

southpaw · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:04 pm

Vectors - partial definition as I understand it (creating a design by use of points as opposed to pixels, filled in with color, thus allowing users to resize it without loss of clarity)
While this is great for shutterstock because of thier monthly membership business model, it is not great for most of us. Even those who waited and waited for vectors to be included are cutting thier own throats by putting up vectors which are in fact about 20-25 images in one. (not all of them are like that, but check out the top sellers) - clearly the designer is now getting more bang for thier buck at our expense. Imagine a designer who needed a stop sign, a yield sign, a one way sign, etc etc....before they may have to download those as separate images, and if they are all from the same photographer, the photographer would get 3 downloads or more, or 3 or 4 different photographers would each get a download. Now vectors come along, someone throws 20-25 images on 1 image and because of the nature of vectors each of those images can in reality be resized to whatever size the designer needs and bingo - 1 download total.
Like I said earlier, no big deal to shutterstock, they still get thier membership fee regardless of how many images the designer downloads. But us contributors just got screwed out of possibly a lot of downloads. Dont get me wrong, I am not knocking the person who is lucky enough to have all those vectors in the top 50, they obviously are taking advantage of the change and all the power to them since it is shutterstock who is allowing this. But for someone like me, who doesnt have the time to create vectors, or has no interest in doing them, but would rather use my photographic ability to sell images, this somehow doesnt seem to be fair.
I am sure I am not the only one who is not interested in doing vectors, and who is noticing a slowdown in sales possibly due to the vector craze.
I have been one of the first people to say, if shutterstock makes a change in thier quality criteria or type of photo they want, then the photographer has to change with the times, BUT, this is not a change in quality or type of "photograph". It is a total change in how the image is created. I think to be fair to those of us who joined here to display and improve our "photographic" skills and make a couple of bucks that vectors should be moved to a totally new sister site and leave shutterstock to the photographers. It is very disheartening to me to go out and create a shot that I think is good for stock, only to see it overshadowed by an artificially created image that is created by some piece of software. yes, digital cameras use software too, but the photographer has to get the right light, angle, set up the shot, etc etc etc.
So bottom line is - is this www.shutterstock.com or www.vectorstock.com ?
If shutterstock does eventually becoome a site that mainly sells vectors and illustrations, then I for one will be sorry to have to pack up my camera and look elsewhere to sell my photos...I didnt join here to spend all day on a computer "creating" images. Before anyone says this, Yes, I understand shutterstock is a business, Yes, I understand decisions are made in the interest of making the site work..blah blah blah....but I also think there is room for both types of stock, but not in the same locations...
Oh and one more thing that is eluding to another post, for those of you who are scared of having your photos used in templates, I would be more worried about competeing against vectors that sell 25 pics in one.....

3pod · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:40 pm

I agree with you that vectors started selling like crazy . I won't complain though cause I'm in the middle :)

Most of my work is 3d illustrations which sell very good also.
IMO the vector panic that took place over the last week will calm down as time passes . There where many vector uploads because many people already had a big amount of stock and they uploaded it all together when SS started supporting vectors. No need to pack any cameras IMO.

Cheers.

dkgilbey · Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 730 Location: Hampshire - UK

I think that a shop (online or otherwise) that has a wider range of products will only attract more shoppers - could be every chance that designers looking for a vector image (or whatever image)...
- Buy a subscription...
- Download the vectors they want...
- Uses remaining download allowance for some 'other' images/photos...
- See my gallery & buy another subscription!!! + tell their friends...

All in all if it brings more people to the site it can only be a good thing - Go out & shoot some great shots...

Get them uploaded & feel the love!

Subscribers will still need other images, designs & photos of cats & sunsets...

grandillusion · Joined: 31 Jan 2005 Posts: 92

3pod is the most artificial one here, I mean just look at his avatar. He might not even be a real person, but some AI experiment at an MIT lab. I say he goes first!! And where are all his 3D images now? Not in the top 50 this week. Just a few weeks ago everyone on this site was asking about 3D programs to compete with 3dog, now its vectors. So don't take it so seriously. Those files won't be there long. Did you notice how popular running and jumping is this week? That's not vector. Go out an shoot running and jumping.

southpaw · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:22 pm

I dont have a problem with vectors as a whole, but I do have a problem with selling one image that consists of 25 smaller images that can be upsized to the point the designer is getting 25 images all at once, thus lowering our downloads. This is definately a good thing for shutterstocks business, shutterstock pays out $.23 to the contributor, the designer gets 25 images for the time it takes to download 1 image. So do the math, it may bring in business, but is it going to bring in 25 times more business?
Vectors should be sold separately from here, and maybe even sold at a more substantial price due to the fact the designer gets a choice of 25 images for 1 download. Maybe a good thing for those who really enjoy making vectors is sell them one at a time instead of lumping them in with the 750 per month they now enjoy. I just think it is grossly unfair for the photographers here to have to compete with images that really dont have anything to do with photography, so the bottom line is, you either change the reason you joined the site in the first place and start computer generating images, or keep uploading your photos as usual but with a substantial lose of downloads, or as a last resort, move on to somewhere that doesnt make you compete with drawings of stick men and tons of road signs. Not to mention there is virtually no way to tell if those drawings truly are the creation of the submitter or they have been "borrowed" other than the submitters word. With a photograph there is always ways to prove it is yours.....

To me there is a big difference betweens 3pods 3Ds and vectors, 3pod doesnt put 25 3D images on one image, his downloads were still one picture one download. And when a designer can get a deal like that I dont see this as a passing faze. I remember people saying rap music wouldnt last too....;-)

grandillusion · Joined: 31 Jan 2005 Posts: 92

southpaw · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:45 pm

vectors, clip-art, icons, call them what you will. 25 images on 1 sheet is still going to affect sales of regular photographs. If you bought a package of gum, would you buy a package that only had 1 stick in it, or the package that had 25 flavours, both selling for the same price? If you were the gum manufacturer you would never do that, but if you were the retailer and you got both packages from the manufacturers at the same price you would of course not have a problem selling both packages...sales of the 25 pack of gum would go up and sales of the 1 stick per pack would go down, that is only simple economics. I will watch the trend and if the vectors do indeed faze out, good, if they continue to affect my sales then I will have to re-evaluate why I joined this site...do I change why I joined and start pumping out vectors to make some cash or do I continue to upload images that stand less of a chance to be downloaded. Only time will tell...

grandillusion · Joined: 31 Jan 2005 Posts: 92

Whatever I call them. Icons in large sets were on this site almost from the beginning; most certainly long before you discovered vectors were destroying your career.

This one has been here a long time:
http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-168327.html

shutterstock · Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 1881 Location: New York, NY

southpaw,

There aren't even that many vectors on the site and I can't imagine they are affecting sales for anybody...

We're just getting new sales from people who just want vectors now. Most designers don't even have adobe illustrator... and they come for photos.

we just have a new clientelle now... that comes only for vectors. They wouldn't join anyway for the photos. And these clients only take vectors.

Clip art is completely different than photos. Why would a designer who is looking for photos come by and take vectors instead of your photos?

I'm not sure you can apply this vector theory to your sales. How much of a sample are you working off of? The beginning of this month? I just checked your stats and the past 2 weeks are hardly statistically significant enough to come to any solid conclusion - in my mathematically oriented opinion.

StuartE · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:34 pm

I agree with the concept, Southpaw, I find it amazing that they're willing to offer so many images at once - give that they'd probably get 4 downloads of 4 at a time instead of one with 20, but hey, if they know what they're doing they're easy to generate simple shapes, and it's easy revenue...

Of course, there is no upper limit on file size, either - so you COULD bundle four photographs into one single image, and then upload that - then I could bundle eight, so I'm offering twice the value of your download - and then we can get 5c and 2.5c per image each out of our sales... but I can't really argue that they're destroying their own market place, when I'm the victim of the same argument from established stock photographers - they can't imagine selling their images for 20c each, either...

Just smile, and agree with the vector uploader, that each piece of clipart on his 20 piece sheet is worth 1c every time it's downloaded - I'm sure that's rewarding... :-)

As for packing the camera away and going elsewhere... well, why pack it away - you keep your images on here, and you work harder somewhere else - it's then an extra revenue stream, vectors or not... are the vectors damaging my sales? I don't think so - the amount of sales I'm down is slight, and I think it's because of my own inability to get over waiting a week for approval - so I'm concentrating on growing a gallery elsewhere - which is giving me the approval feedback for new images, too, so I can upload more images here, eventually... But even our most vocal 'bat and ball' going home player here still has his gallery, and I bet he didn't send last month's cheque back, either... vectors aren't a good enough reason to leave, in my opinion...

The decision at the site to 'steer' away from illustrations hurt my sales more than vectors have, too - I was seeing a few sales a day from 'generated' images, which have slowed since I haven't been able to add anymore - and again, those 'losses' are being made up by the 'other' sites that are taking them, and getting me downloads there - I look forward to having big enough portfolios at three or four sites and getting payments every month from each of them - and getting a few more vectors in here to benefit from the frenzy!!!

Cheers,
Stuart

southpaw · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:44 pm

I feel there are several factors in play as to why my sales are down from last month. Vectors could be one of the contributing factors. I will concede probably the biggest factor is that now that my seasonal job has started I do not have the time to upload as many photos as before. (grandillusion, this most certainly is not my career or I would be starving, so no need to get sarcastic...;-) )
But my own personal sales was not really meant to be the focus of this thread, my main concern was whether or not shutterstock was going to become more and more geared towards designers that would rather use vectors,clip-art,icons, whatever, rather than photos because it may prove to be more lucrative and easier to sell to the designer. As I said earlier, I will watch the trend, and if it looks like the vectors are outselling the photographs based on the top 50 each week, then I have to look at what options I have. As also stated earlier, I joined shutterstock to display and sell my photographs, not to sit on a computer all day making pictures, so if and when it seems vectors,clip-art,icons,illustartions outsell photos then it is time to move on. But if those forms of images do get that popular, I would hope at that point shutterstock may decide to branch them off to another site and leave the photography part for photographers....

StuartE
I dont think I would take my pictures down even if I decided to leave, but rather just get what I can for as long as i can. Leave is more a matter of interpretation, by leave I basically mean I wouldnt spend much effort here uploading pictures if I had a place that was more geared towards photograpy than illustrators, because photography not illustrations is why I joined in the first place...;-) I played around with making a few designs and such and even have one that has sold not too bad, but designs/illustrations is just something I dont want to do, if that is what it would take to continue getting sales here on a regular basis

rodehi · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:15 pm

Im down a bit in sales the past few days but Im not sure it has alot to do with vectors,or maybe it does.The point I want to make is more to do with the"25 images in 1".
If these vectors are so popular maybe its good to have multiple images on each,if they were singles then the designers would have to spend all there available dl's to get all the vectors they need.The way it is now they can get a bunch of vectors at once leaving them with extra available dl's.If anything its the vector makers shooting themselves in the foot!Maybe having the multiples is better for the photographers?Just a thought........Ron

grandillusion · Joined: 31 Jan 2005 Posts: 92

southpaw · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:39 pm

Rodehi
I believe vectors are popular right now BECAUSE of the fact they include 25 images in 1. I doubt a designer would download 25 vectors of signs unless they really needed 25 sign images. But if they can download the one they need which happens to be included on a sheet with 24 more that could be used at a later date, they will surely download that one as opposed to a single image. Wouldnt you?

It could simply be designers were waiting for vectors and when they were made available there is a rush that is going to die out, only time will tell.

Grandillusion
The trouble with analogies is they can be worded in such a way that strengthens the argument of the person using the analogy, therefore my analogy makes sense and so does yours.

But anyway, not much more can be said by me on this subject so when Jon comes on here and says that images such as vectors,icons,illustrations and the like will never become the main focus of shutterstock my concerns will be appeased....;-)

LizV · Joined: 07 Nov 2004 Posts: 290 Location: New York

Just one thing about the vectors .. they are sold on all the other sites too and have been all along. There doesn't seem to be any competition between the vector makers and the photographers. We are just noticing the activity here, because it is new. And as Jon stated, along with the opportunity to sell vectors came a new clientelle who wanted to buy them. They probably never bought images to begin with.

As of this writing, 14 of the Top 50 are vectors, which is hardly a majority. I think all forms of stock can co-exist peacefully and profitably. If we look around different web sites, advertisements, brochures, etc. not all stock work comes in the form of a photograph. So from a business standpoint, it is foolish not to offer a diverse collection for designers and buyers.

It seems that stock sales are a very seasonal business. Things were busy around Valentine's Day and Easter, but there are no major holidays coming up in April .. Mother's Day is in a few weeks, but I don't think it's the cash cow that the other holidays are.

Anyway, I suppose my point is not to get discouraged. Just keep doing what you like to do and upload to all the different sites. This is a long-term investment.