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chbaum · Joined: 19 Sep 2010 Posts: 401 Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Funny, they're actually counted and written down for the statistics.

In 2011, German police officers fired 86 shots in situations with human opponents. ALL German police officers, that is. 49 of those were warning shots. 36 were aimed at people. 15 people were injured, and six died.

Apart from that 8812 animals were shot and killed, mainly to ease their pain after road accidents.

Just thought I mention it. For the record. ;)

Best regards,

Christian

hhltdave5 · Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:51 pm

They fire warning shots? Dang, not a good idea. A warning shot can kill or harm innocent people. When I was on the department we were trained that if we had to pull our weapon and shoot at someone you did it to kill, not warn or wound.

And before someone starts in with that is over reacting we are also trained not to use deadly force unless our life or the life of someone else is in mortal danger. Before that level is reached we are trained to use other non lethal methods.

chbaum · Joined: 19 Sep 2010 Posts: 401 Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Well, I'm not acquainted with the details of our police rules or laws, but as far as I know, they are the same. EVERY single shot fired has to be accounted for, and for every injury or death, there is a lawsuit against the officer as far as I know.

The difference (and the reason why it's so few shots fired) might be that most of the opponents here don't have any firearms, so deadly force is very rarely necessary. Of course, there are thousands of gun licenses, but the laws are extremely strict (like you're not allowed to keep a firearm in your bedroom - they've gotta be locked in vaults etc). Most gun crimes are committed with illegal guns, but even those are rarely where the police officers are. So, actually, I feel quite safe here. ;-)

Concerning warning shots: Don't know about that one at all. Just read the statistics. They probably know what they're doing, like only firing warning shots when no one else is around, dunno...

Funny enough: If I only counted the few miserable crime shows that are produced in Germany, I'd already count hundreds of shots fired, let alone counting the U.S. shows (sometimes, in one C.S.I. episode they fire more shots than German police in a whole year :-))).

Best,

Christian

triceratops · Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 7933 Location: The other Nevada

jeffbanke · Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:54 pm

martyhaas · Joined: 25 Apr 2007 Posts: 148

robhainer · Joined: 03 May 2010 Posts: 2895 Location: Dallas, GA, USA

What about in your house? In Georgia, if someone breaks into your house regardless of intent, you can shoot to kill, no questions asked. And that's how it should be. I also don't see how it would be acceptable for the government to tell you that you have to lock up your guns in your house. That's going a bit too far. Pretty hard to use it for self-defense when you have it locked up tight in a gun safe.

Mike Price · Joined: 06 Jun 2008 Posts: 2933 Location: South Wales

I think you are missing the OP's point. He is saying that in germany where citizens dont bear arms that only 6 people were killed by the police in firearm related incidents. This matches the UK where gun crime is very rare in a country where no one except certain authorised police are permitted to legally carry a firarm.

Mike

robhainer · Joined: 03 May 2010 Posts: 2895 Location: Dallas, GA, USA

I didn't miss his point. I'd rather have more gun crime over having the government telling me where to put my guns in my own house.

Mike Price · Joined: 06 Jun 2008 Posts: 2933 Location: South Wales

I think the difference is, Rob, that there is no history of gun ownership in the UK for the majority so we have no desire on the whole to bear arms. The history of the US is different where the right to bear arms is enshrined in your constitution, so you have a very different view.

These philosophical differences are in our makeup so it is understandable that the views over gun ownership are very different in the US an.d much of Europe.

Mike

jeffbanke · Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:06 pm

Here are a few stats on gun crime, unfortunately they also do not compare total populations, which would give a somewhat different picture
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

Strangely the stats differ very much from the OP's for Germany by a very significant number, some 250+

Great Britain for all it's oppressive gun laws still managed to beat Iceland in the number of gun related murders

This is a better comparison of crime in the world
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Mike Price · Joined: 06 Jun 2008 Posts: 2933 Location: South Wales

The official figures that I have seen shows it is 40 times less likely to be a victim of gun crime in the UK compared to the US. Although on the figures in the survey quoted adjusted for population shows the US to be 150 times more than the UK.

The figures you quote Jeff are different to the OP because they are total gun crime wheareas the OP quotes police related incidents.

Mike

jeffbanke · Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:16 pm

Guess I modified my post after you posted Mike
So this is from an English source which seems to imply there is more crime in the UK
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Perhaps you need more guns :-)

Mike Price · Joined: 06 Jun 2008 Posts: 2933 Location: South Wales

Voilent crime in the Uk is defined as anything from a minor scuffle that results in police intervention to murder, so you have to be clear what you are comparing.

There is however a lot of fairly low level alcohol related crime, mainly brawls and fights which blights many city centres, especially on weekends, so the Uk is certainly not perfect.

Mike

jeffbanke · Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:40 pm

If you read the article, they actually made the point that not every country reports the same, so you have made my point, that statistics are only as good as the reporting of such.
We in the US for example report everything, if you take into consideration the fact that our population is 3-4x that of the UK.
70% of our gun related murders are gang and drug related against each other, the stats for the rest of us are no where near as alarming as the anti gun faction would like to portray.