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kenny123
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 6078
Location: Masterton,Wairarapa, New Zealand
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 3:20 pm
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[quote="semmickphoto"][quote="smileus"][quote="semmickphoto"]...
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Lol, then some people post in the experts section only to be scolded and laughed at by people who claim to be "real" experts. ;)[/quot
An "expert" is only a person with an opinion |
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wolfienz
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Posts: 31
Location: Gulf Harbour, New Zealand
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:50 pm
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As a newbie to stock work from the photographers angle, I needed to know what the standard was. I knew it was high but how high.
I have worked as a graphic designer for nearly 20 years and we bought stock pics but always of a certain type.
For instance I can never recall anyone ever buying a landscape. So I put a photo up here to be critiqued because lots of people have landscapes, and I wanted to know the standard. I was suspicious that people built up their numbers by using snapshot type images. Good to get told very quickly that this is not so
I am attracted to extractions, and having bought them so many times I knew they were technically good.
By posting my pics on here I was very quickly able to establish the areas I need to focus on (what a pun) to get up to that standard. All the online courses etc that you can do are great and I have done many of these.
However I learned more about stock photography with my own posts on here and also reading everyone else's posts that I could have learned in a hundred years in online courses.
This forum if you take note of the critiques is valuable, and I for one am happy if you slam my pics, I want to get up to speed quickly so don't soft soap me, I want it as it is.
Keep up the work guys we newbies all appreciate it. |
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mikenorton
Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 3473
Location: Guide Book http://www.lulu.com/shop/mike-norton/nortons-notes/paperback/product-5079819.html
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:41 am
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So this thread is suggested that noobies who just picked up a camera and then come here for advise should be shunned? Well, what about the person who picked up a DSLR 2 years ago, a person who does acceptable but by no means great work. When that person comes here and wants to hone their skills as a stock photographer should he or she be shunned also? Some of the people here have the experience & knowledge to view both of these people as noobies.
It has been suggested that there should be some sort of general guide lines of what a photographer should know before posting in here. What are the guidelines that a photographer should know first, who draws the line, how much should a photographer know first? Shutter Speed + F-Stop divided by ISO? Is that enough? Or should they also be required to know key light, fill light, hair light, bellows factor, lighting ratios, reciprocity, one too many trees, bounce light, Rembrandt lighting, scrims, gobo, zone system, hot lights, dark cloth, photoshop, blue hour, dragging the shutter, painting with light, 300 mm f2.8, dark slide, motion blur, Matthews stands, sand bags and stop action before they can ask about HDR?
I for one think that most of us are where we are because at one time someone took the time to pass along to us some hard won advise. Now it's our turn to pass it on to someone else. Where they fall on the noobie to expert scale should not matter.
Well, that's my 2 cents. |
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hhltdave5
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 24065
Location: Our Stock, Food & Portrait photography books at www.rindersmithphotography.com
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:58 am
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| mikenorton wrote: | So this thread is suggested that noobies who just picked up a camera and then come here for advise should be shunned? Well, what about the person who picked up a DSLR 2 years ago, a person who does acceptable but by no means great work. When that person comes here and wants to hone their skills as a stock photographer should he or she be shunned also? Some of the people here have the experience & knowledge to view both of these people as noobies.
It has been suggested that there should be some sort of general guide lines of what a photographer should know before posting in here. What are the guidelines that a photographer should know first, who draws the line, how much should a photographer know first? Shutter Speed + F-Stop divided by ISO? Is that enough? Or should they also be required to know key light, fill light, hair light, bellows factor, lighting ratios, reciprocity, one too many trees, bounce light, Rembrandt lighting, scrims, gobo, zone system, hot lights, dark cloth, photoshop, blue hour, dragging the shutter, painting with light, 300 mm f2.8, dark slide, motion blur, Matthews stands, sand bags and stop action before they can ask about HDR?
I for one think that most of us are where we are because at one time someone took the time to pass along to us some hard won advise. Now it's our turn to pass it on to someone else. Where they fall on the noobie to expert scale should not matter.
Well, that's my 2 cents. |
Couldn't agree with you more Mike. This is how those who like to and want to teach think. Everyone has to start somewhere and the last time I looked there is not a sign on the entrance to the Critique forum that says "No Noobies Allowed," nor should there be.
I think sometimes we forget what it was like in the beginning when we were learning. They want to learn so they come to ask questions. If they see that it is over their heads we can direct them to places they can add to their skills.
If someone gets aggravated or bored with helping those with lower technical skills then they may want to rethink what they are doing. We may get irked with answering the same question over and over again or get frustrated when seeing work over and over again that does not meet up to good standards but that is teaching.
Sometimes I think we need to think back to those who came here and couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag. They bugged us endlessly for months on end but in the end they learned, improved and were accepted. Some people had to try 10 times to get in but they got in.
So, I say when you get bothered about someone coming here with very limited skills just look at it as an opportunity to teach, to play the role of educator and mentor. It may be difficult and there may be times you want to bash a hammer into your head over and over but just think of the reward when you can show you helped someone who came here asking for help.
When we do our workshops the biggest thrill that I get is seeing that light go on in someones head when you explain something to them and it all falls into place. That smile and that "thank you!" makes up for all the effort. |
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greenfield54
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 2616
Location: Philippines
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:41 am
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My hat off for you Mike and Dave. It's not only normal but a moral obligation to give back what was given to you as a foundling. That is only to a level equal to your own skills.
I handled apprentices in my 20 plus years of corporate work saying the same things over and over again to each different batch of trainees. Mind you I'm not talking about the hazards of dropping a camera or getting shots that are washed out or under exposed but loss of life and limb. And that is not to discount the millions of lost revenue to the company.
Everyday I go online and view the critique forum and only that because I learn a little something each time and share some insights whenever I can. Of course I have to be careful not to beget insults from someone on a higher plane than I am. |
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jhuls
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Posts: 1046
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:01 am
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I was all set to ignore this thread I think it has been taken way out of context. I have never suggested that people who are new to photography should not post here only that it is not going to do them much good if they don't know the basics first. Something that we really are not able to teach here. They will get much more out of this thread if they first go an learn the basics of aperture, shutterspeed, DOF, ISO and so on. Honestly I didn't expect such an uproar.
I can only go off of my own experience here. I already knew the basics of photography when first posting here and realized I still had much to learn about the specifics of making a good stock photo. If I had come here with no knowledge of aperture, shutter, ISO and other basics I would have quickly thrown my hands up in the air and left insulted and disgusted with the critiques here. Since I did know the basics I was able to take the critiques make adjustments and get accepted.
There are all sorts of levels of people posting here for critique. I am only suggesting that those who truly don't know the basic terms really need to go and learn them first, to get a good critique here. Now I will be quiet, and you won't here from me again on this subject. |
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ruxpriencdiam
Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 26208
Location: Third Stone from the Sun
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:33 am
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| hhltdave5 wrote: | | mikenorton wrote: | So this thread is suggested that noobies who just picked up a camera and then come here for advise should be shunned? Well, what about the person who picked up a DSLR 2 years ago, a person who does acceptable but by no means great work. When that person comes here and wants to hone their skills as a stock photographer should he or she be shunned also? Some of the people here have the experience & knowledge to view both of these people as noobies.
It has been suggested that there should be some sort of general guide lines of what a photographer should know before posting in here. What are the guidelines that a photographer should know first, who draws the line, how much should a photographer know first? Shutter Speed + F-Stop divided by ISO? Is that enough? Or should they also be required to know key light, fill light, hair light, bellows factor, lighting ratios, reciprocity, one too many trees, bounce light, Rembrandt lighting, scrims, gobo, zone system, hot lights, dark cloth, photoshop, blue hour, dragging the shutter, painting with light, 300 mm f2.8, dark slide, motion blur, Matthews stands, sand bags and stop action before they can ask about HDR?
I for one think that most of us are where we are because at one time someone took the time to pass along to us some hard won advise. Now it's our turn to pass it on to someone else. Where they fall on the noobie to expert scale should not matter.
Well, that's my 2 cents. |
Couldn't agree with you more Mike. This is how those who like to and want to teach think. Everyone has to start somewhere and the last time I looked there is not a sign on the entrance to the Critique forum that says "No Noobies Allowed," nor should there be.
I think sometimes we forget what it was like in the beginning when we were learning. They want to learn so they come to ask questions. If they see that it is over their heads we can direct them to places they can add to their skills.
If someone gets aggravated or bored with helping those with lower technical skills then they may want to rethink what they are doing. We may get irked with answering the same question over and over again or get frustrated when seeing work over and over again that does not meet up to good standards but that is teaching.
Sometimes I think we need to think back to those who came here and couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag. They bugged us endlessly for months on end but in the end they learned, improved and were accepted. Some people had to try 10 times to get in but they got in.
So, I say when you get bothered about someone coming here with very limited skills just look at it as an opportunity to teach, to play the role of educator and mentor. It may be difficult and there may be times you want to bash a hammer into your head over and over but just think of the reward when you can show you helped someone who came here asking for help.
When we do our workshops the biggest thrill that I get is seeing that light go on in someones head when you explain something to them and it all falls into place. That smile and that "thank you!" makes up for all the effort. |
This all would be fine and well except for the fact that even those who critique here may still need a little extra knowledge or eyes to see something a reviewer rejected them for once in awhile!
We are not perfect and sometimes need a little extra help.
And even though SS will tell you to post here and see what others say and the forum says
| Quote: | | A place where submitters can review/evaluate/critique each others work |
when you do you always get some Rude, Arrogant, Condescending, self centered remark about asking for help yet you are critiquing others!
It has happened before and has recently happened again in a recent post so if you haven't noticed i haven't said anything to anyone in almost a week because i dont have time to read remarks like that to others coming hear to ask for help.
There are no rules or anything that says no one cant ask for assistance or help because they are already accepted and critiquing other peoples work and if there is show where it is written and stated as such.
And remember everyone students, instructors, and more will always try to learn more and if they dont then they will never progress or improve in what they are doing.
But with the way things go on hear anymore?
Now back to the regularly scheduled routine. |
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mattgibson
Joined: 11 Nov 2009
Posts: 601
Location: London
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:38 am
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The frustrating thing is.....
Newbie posts image
Image gets ripped apart
Newbie asks how to fix it
Gets told to get it right in camera
Newbie says what settings should I use
Newbie gets told to RTFM
Newbie asks again what settings to use
Newbie gets told again to RTFM
Dave gives sound advice
Newbie posts new image ignoring Dave's advise
Image gets ripped apart
Newbie gets upset
Other newbies defend said newbie
Dave gives sound advice
Newbie told image oof, noisy, blurred, etc
Newbie told to RTFM
Newbie still does not know what settings to use
Newbie gets frustrated
Newbie submits ten images and gets rejected
Newbie posts asking why rejected
Everyone rips images apart
Newbie told he should have listened to advice
Dave gives sound advice - again
Someone asks if this is a wind up
Newbie told to take classes
Laurin offers classes at $2000
Newbie chokes
"Pros" choke
Other newbies choke
Laurin says he was joking - for $1000 you can attend his course
Newbie gives up and posts on Flickr
Everyone annoyed cos of wasting their time with useless newbie
Sales go up and sales go down
Dave gives sound advice
Laurin pushes his wares to the community
Shutterstock life goes on
No offence intended to anyone, please take this in the vein it was intended!!
Matt |
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jeffbanke
Joined: 18 Dec 2005
Posts: 17463
Location: www.xlr8photo.com, The real California
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:10 pm
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I don't have two cents, so am not responding to this thread!
Just happy I was in New Zealand for a month, and unable to respond to newbies threads, lest I might be included in Matt's post above, or be accused of making some Rude, Arrogant, Condescending remark as mentioned in Noel's previous post :-) |
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rinder99
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 39156
Location: Contact www.rinderart.com/Books and Workshops www.rindersmithphotography.com Youtube/rinder
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:10 pm
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Matt, You left off newbie gets free help,Free PM's and e-mails for advice on how to and what to buy from folks with experience and not something they just read somewhere but actually used or done themselves,This is the only forum on any site that does this.And, newbie doesn't understand that some of us do this for a Living But, We give away for free much more than we charge for, Typing a few paragraphs is a LOT different than spending 8/10 hours with someone in a class.And Just so you know, I don't accept everyone, Theres Months of Planning,Questions and homework to do before you even come to see me.Some of my Private students have said it's like drinking water from a fire hose.It's pretty intense and the reason i've been booked 4 months ahead for the last 6 years.
I wait for someone to show me something and those don't come around very often, Someone who has "IT" and you can see it a mile away. Fixing focus is easy,Noise is easy,Composition is tough and subjective but without the "IT" factor, The work ethic,open mind and creativity well....I'll save the typing and just be very short until they take what we say,Use it and come back, Then we can get to work,Then comes the PM's and e-mails and phone calls. Jenn is the last example I can think of. She just had "IT" and I will bet a months commission that in a year or so she will far surpass the majority here sales wise. She wants it,She needs it and it shows in her work far more than she can type.
Thats why i don't really read what someone says much, The images say it all, Some just get it,Some learn it and the majority just won't.Thats reality.
Nothing we say or any critique given is NOT personal in anyway shape or form...Do we say it right all the time? God No, Do we tell you what you want to hear? Some do,Most don't. Do we tell you what you need to hear? I hope so and if we hurt your ego or pride or feelings? Sorry, Get over it and prove us wrong. I would.
Just Dave,Myself ,both Mikes,chris,rob and Jeff have at least 140 years experience between us and each of us have a different style and expertise along with some other very cool people here, Theres a lot we don't agree on and I respect and admire that But, what we do agree on is Learning the basics and doing the work, Without that Im afraid I and the others are just hearing ourselves talk to a blank screen.Im tired of Blah,Blah,Blah. Every question about noise,Focus and everything else has been addressed and is here. I learned the in and outs of footage by looking at old posts on the footage forum. it's here guys. Use it.
I can say for certain that of all the people we have talked to probably 1000's maybe a handful went on to do something important and I don't mean stock, I mean finding there voice through photography.Pretty cool when that happens.
I'll keep doing it with My style,Others with there style so, My advice is take it all in and do your best. were trying.Thats all we can do by typing.But, That means you have to try also and study like we did. If ya don't we can get cranky. LOL |
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marcusvdt
Joined: 12 Feb 2009
Posts: 1191
Location: www.flashbackfoto.com.br or www.facebook.com/flashbackfoto
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:50 pm
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keep the forum as is.
It is entertaining to see non sense photographs being slammed. This is the best part, hehehe.
It is very very amazing to see how Dave has the endless patience for giving most useful advices.
It is fun to see Barry asking for the crops all the time, and how he is able to see non tack sharp focus even on photos which have acceptable focus.
It is intepesting to see how Laurin has a variable humour, very normal behavior IMHO. Sometimes hard, sometimes not.
Very very interesting to see how the critiques are driven to find defects even when a photo is near-perfect and would probably sell even with the defects.
And so many other interesting things...
this is entertaining at least... enjoy it! |
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hhltdave5
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 24065
Location: Our Stock, Food & Portrait photography books at www.rindersmithphotography.com
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:53 am
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| marcusvdt wrote: | keep the forum as is.
It is very very amazing to see how Dave has the endless patience for giving most useful advices.
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Yeah but one day all that patience may come to an end and I will go absolutely postal on someones ass! LOL
A good portion of my patience came from when I was on the police department. You need unlimited patience at times because you must retain your cool.
I do thank you very much for the kind words. |
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rinder99
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 39156
Location: Contact www.rinderart.com/Books and Workshops www.rindersmithphotography.com Youtube/rinder
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:51 am
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I'll give him another 10,000 critiques before he goes postal. LOL |
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mikenorton
Joined: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 3473
Location: Guide Book http://www.lulu.com/shop/mike-norton/nortons-notes/paperback/product-5079819.html
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 12:16 pm
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| hhltdave5 wrote: | | marcusvdt wrote: | keep the forum as is.
It is very very amazing to see how Dave has the endless patience for giving most useful advices.
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Yeah but one day all that patience may come to an end and I will go absolutely postal on someones ass! LOL
A good portion of my patience came from when I was on the police department. You need unlimited patience at times because you must retain your cool.
I do thank you very much for the kind words. |
That's why I pick and choose the threads to which I comment. |
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cpaulfell
Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 2410
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:01 pm
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| mikenorton wrote: |
That's why I pick and choose the threads to which I comment. |
And it is those gems that I like to look for. |
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