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rinder99
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 32268
Location: Stock,food,portrait books www.rindersmithphotography.com
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:41 pm
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| michaeldb wrote: | | graphicphoto wrote: | | I have a card with my frog kitten on it right now all over the country selling for 2.99 from American Greetings. They did a horrible job on it in my opinion and I don't even know how much I got for it as I am on other sites. I will assume the print run is HUGE and they are making quite a large profit. Sure I would like to reap some of those profits but this is my place on the assembly line. I chose it so I can't complain too much. I get bummed too but what other option is there other than just opt out? |
I LOVE THE FROG KITTEN!!!
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My God, Thats one of the cutiest Animal shots I have ever seen!!! |
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graphicphoto
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 2452
Location: In your brain, stealing your ideas!
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:46 pm
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| rinder99 wrote: | | michaeldb wrote: | | graphicphoto wrote: | | I have a card with my frog kitten on it right now all over the country selling for 2.99 from American Greetings. They did a horrible job on it in my opinion and I don't even know how much I got for it as I am on other sites. I will assume the print run is HUGE and they are making quite a large profit. Sure I would like to reap some of those profits but this is my place on the assembly line. I chose it so I can't complain too much. I get bummed too but what other option is there other than just opt out? |
I LOVE THE FROG KITTEN!!!
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My God, Thats one of the cutiest Animal shots I have ever seen!!! |
Ha ha, thanks you two. If I had half the money that this guy is probably making out there I could probably buy a nice boat and a motorhome! He has A LOT of ELs. Funny thing is...this shot was just a spur of the moment afterthought shot. I had no idea it would be my best selling image ever! |
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rtimages
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 545
Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:53 pm
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| rinder99 wrote: | I Totally understand RT's view.
................Im saying we can change this if we all care and Im not talking about anything More than something Like "A super extended license" to use our stuff, Print it and sell it. |
Laurin,
I'm not sure you do totally understand my view, so I'll try and expand it a bit.
This and the site in question are Royalty Free microstock sites, and as such the license in it's basic form allows certain usage, the license in it's extended form allows further usage, now you're asking for an even more extended license - why?
Are you aware that a basic RF license on the more traditional sites (which for reasons of respect I won't name but we all know who they are) actually allows more usage of an image than the EL here and on that other microstock site, and a lot of the time it would actually cost less, so your super extended license would not IMO be a viable option.
What you are asking for already exists and it's called Rights Managed licensing, and that is the license under which most stock pro's sell their work that would fall under the term 'fine art', or work that they don't want to see enter the royalty free market.
Or as Mandy pointed out you can go down the gallery/print route.
So my point is, this is microstock and it is a sub-industry amongst many others, you don't need to write letters and try to change things, it's already there, you just need to research and find the appropriate place for how you want your image sold, or accept the consequences of uploading the work you feel emotional about to microstock sites.
Now commission levels are a seperate issue, but that is down to each individual site and if you want to rally the troops to work on that you'll have my support, but to try and change the license is not the answer.
In short what you're asking for already exists, not here but elsewhere.
On a sidenote I'm amazed that none of the microsites have introduced a RM license.
-Richard |
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filipeb
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 864
Location: Algarve - Portugal
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:57 pm
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how about 1 month strike?? |
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editorial
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 509
Location: Dublin
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:01 pm
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| rinder99 wrote: | Totally agree, TOTALLY. the horse is out.Thats what I did also for many years at gallery shows, Numbered prints. My mistake was uploading them as im sure many have done.They've sold in Huge numbers. No problem, Glad to share with the world for 38 cents a pop.Am I just being to Old school about the print Issue? Do I just let it go and not upload My best work for people to see and enjoy? and forget about Print sales, I sell my stuff for
$90.00 to $450.00 depending on size and printed the best way possible. Most of what I sell is not offered on stock sites so Im protected, But your probably right to just let it go as it's to late for a few pieces.Oh well, I can shoot more...LOL |
I think I would let this one go man. There's a lot of people hanging on your words here and it takes an even bigger man to admit he's made a mistake.
Hindsight is of course a great thing but I think you've also omitted to mention that there might have been some "method in your madness" for want of a better description.
Would you per chance have put those fine-art pieces up to draw attention to your other stock or is that just me being a cynical old PR crony? :))) |
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pepe
Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Posts: 230
Location: Caldas da Rainha
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:04 pm
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to Laurin
What i think is the microstock will kill the photophrafy very fast. For those who spent much money on courses and training and for who is really photographer sell excellent work for this money is the same as giving the work.
I have no words
Best regards
Pedro |
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mikeledray
Joined: 14 Nov 2004
Posts: 17745
Location: The King of the Count Down!
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:06 pm
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| filipeb wrote: | | how about 1 month strike?? |
ya thats it
Everyone (except me of course) quit uploading for 1 month!
ya thats the ticket |
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photobunny
Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 995
Location: Bristol United Kingdom
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:13 pm
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| gregor wrote: | | I agree with Laurin. With the microstock market growing and taking over the macrostock market, it's time to change the EL prohibitions. |
I agree too! I know its what we agreed to, but it just DOES NOT feel like a fair deal!
What about letting us set a price for an EL? Like a few of the other stock sites allows us to do? That way at least we have some sort of control. |
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mocker
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 177
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:27 pm
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I wrote about this several times.
I contacted different sites about this.
No response.
Also, even standard licenses are so different on different sites that almost always you can avoid buying EL. Just check standard license terms on other sites and buy from one that does have the hole you need at this moment.
The only solution would be standardizing terms of regular (non EL) license across all agencies.
They are not interested in this.
The only way would by to unite and create kind of union to represent submitters.
The only way to make this organization – get some real heavy weight submitters.
If anybody wants to organize this I'm ready to pay yearly dues. |
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rinder99
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 32268
Location: Stock,food,portrait books www.rindersmithphotography.com
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:41 pm
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So am I actually.It was discussed a Long time ago But never caught on I guess. I hear what your saying and glad a few understand my point also. But I agree, theres not to much we can do. Or is there? and agree with Mandy.
I've been selling Prints since the late 60's everywhere from street fairs to galleries along with My paintings.And as you may recall Sold my first stock image in 1968. and probably still have 4x5 slides rotting away in some vault in Old school Traditional agencies in NY.
I joined RF as a lark and an experiment when a big deal was 20 cents.and then making 2 bucks a day was pretty cool, And ,I guess it still is for a lot of folks.I saw a huge opportunity early on here for teaching and passing along Experience and thats my reward and has become a business.My biggest, most profitable business for years was for TV and Film Rentals and most of those 800 pieces have been tied up with exclusive agreements with the agents and will start becoming available to sell again in a few months which Im very excited about.Im very, very aware of "other markets" Have been for a lot of years.Maybe Im wrong for trying to question Our rights and agreements, But I always will.Thats who I am.And I got a few things changed over the years with some great peoples help.I think Were done here, Don't think anyones that interested about this.But, I gaurentee it will come up again and again. |
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rinder99
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 32268
Location: Stock,food,portrait books www.rindersmithphotography.com
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:43 pm
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| photobunny wrote: | | gregor wrote: | | I agree with Laurin. With the microstock market growing and taking over the macrostock market, it's time to change the EL prohibitions. |
I agree too! I know its what we agreed to, but it just DOES NOT feel like a fair deal!
What about letting us set a price for an EL? Like a few of the other stock sites allows us to do? That way at least we have some sort of control. |
I'll go for that.Just for resellers. You wanna Huge file size for prints. Pay this much.... I like it. and simple to do. |
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rinder99
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 32268
Location: Stock,food,portrait books www.rindersmithphotography.com
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:45 pm
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| mocker wrote: | I wrote about this several times.
I contacted different sites about this.
No response.
Also, even standard licenses are so different on different sites that almost always you can avoid buying EL. Just check standard license terms on other sites and buy from one that does have the hole you need at this moment.
The only solution would be standardizing terms of regular (non EL) license across all agencies.
They are not interested in this.
The only way would by to unite and create kind of union to represent submitters.
The only way to make this organization – get some real heavy weight submitters.
If anybody wants to organize this I'm ready to pay yearly dues. |
I know you have. Im with ya. |
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mavrick
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2099
Location: colorado
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editorial
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 509
Location: Dublin
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:54 pm
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Guys, let's face it, you can't honestly expect to negotiate favourable terms when a MS model is running right alongside.
Fine-art prints need to be priced with exclusivity in mind and that piece should NEVER be available in any other format or from any other site for that matter.
Every single person on here has the potential to develop brand equity but to do so you must follow certain rules.
MS breaks all those rules. It dilutes you as brand, you have little or no control over where or how your product is used so therefore your brand value is lowered.
As I said already, it is very difficult to come up on pricing with a product that is low to begin with. Even if it's an extremely fine image that belongs in the Smithsonian, put it on an MS portfolio and its perceived value changes immediately.
So value is just as much about perception as it is intrinsic.
I apologize in advance if I sound like I'm preaching but that's our business outside of here. Or at least it was until I started goofing off :) |
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hospitalera
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 3012
Location: Prague (Czech Republic) http://hospitalera.com
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:03 pm
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| editorial wrote: | Guys, let's face it, you can't honestly expect to negotiate favourable terms when a MS model is running right alongside.
Fine-art prints need to be priced with exclusivity in mind and that piece should NEVER be available in any other format or from any other site for that matter.
Every single person on here has the potential to develop brand equity but to do so you must follow certain rules.
MS breaks all those rules. It dilutes you as brand, you have little or no control over where or how your product is used so therefore your brand value is lowered.
As I said already, it is very difficult to come up on pricing with a product that is low to begin with. Even if it's an extremely fine image that belongs in the Smithsonian, put it on an MS portfolio and its perceived value changes immediately.
So value is just as much about perception as it is intrinsic.
I apologize in advance if I sound like I'm preaching but that's our business outside of here. Or at least it was until I started goofing off :) |
Well said! SY |
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