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reviewer
Admin
Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 1627
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 12:13 pm
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There have been a lot of questions about keywording and rejection of rekeyworded images and this post should clarify our policy.
Firstly, we are currently training many new reviewers and once in a while they will make the very human mistake of toggling the wrong button. Human error happens.
That said, we are taking note of the quality of all the images on the site. If after looking at your re-keyworded entries we find that your quality is less than on par, we may flag your gallery for review. If at review we find that your existing shots are of low quality (have noise, artifacts, lighting issues, or other technical problems) we may delete some of the shots.
Yes, even ones that have sold one or two in the past. Designers get very upset when they download a super sized image and it is of poor quality at full size.
Will there be a way to dispute the deletions? No. What you should do is post the image with a full size example area to the forum and get advice from you peers. I also suggest using sites such as www.photosig.com and www.dpphoto.com for fair and unbiased critique of your shots.
Bottom line: Keyword your images carefully the first time. Check the most searched words list for applicable words you may not have thought of. Look at the other images similar to yours and get keyword ideas from them. Be sure to title your image concisely, without complicated descriptions, dates of shots (unless editorial) and camera used. Your success is dependant on all of these things being done correctly.
We want our photographers to succeed. You can, by uploading only your very best shots, by keeping your content fresh, and by helping us review quicker by keywording and titling efficiently
Thanks! |
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essa667
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 109
Location: Orlando, FL, USA
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:22 pm
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I wish these policies had been more clearly defined in the Photo submission area previously other than SS can remove any photo at any time at their discretion. It would have saved me a lot of frustration, time, and maybe the photos that I had in my gallery that apparently at least 9 "humans" thought were acceptable until they were deemed unacceptable without any notification from SS.
Thanks for clearing this all up for us. I'm sure you have a lot more "educated" photographers at this site now.
As for putting them on the critique forum... what is that going to do for me or SS? It's either going to prove SS right in removing my images or me right that they were acceptable in the first place, but I'll still have to resubmit and wait for approval anyway. I appreciate the offer though.
Just curious... are the people doing the critiquing on that forum "reviewers"? If not, and the review process is a totally human process by the reviewers, then the opinion of those on the forum regarding my photos don't really mean much in getting images accepted on SS. |
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RosaMystica7
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 267
Location: New York
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:28 pm
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I just wish I had known what I know now about keywording when I first joined, and had the better keywording skills that I have now. All those pictures I'm afraid of losing if I improve the keywords... I wonder what I'll think of my current keywords in a few months after I learn more.
I don't agree with SS's response to this problem at all. It's sad too, this is the only thing I haven't been happy with so far here at SS. |
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reviewer
Admin
Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 1627
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:33 pm
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| essa667 wrote: | | I wish these policies had been more clearly defined in the Photo submission area previously other than SS can remove any photo at any time at their discretion. It would have saved me a lot of frustration, time, and maybe the photos that I had in my gallery that apparently at least 9 "humans" thought were acceptable until they were deemed unacceptable without any notification from SS. |
We are a new company. We are just forming firm policy.
| Quote: |
As for putting them on the critique forum... what is that going to do for me or SS? It's either going to prove SS right in removing my images or me right that they were acceptable in the first place, but I'll still have to resubmit and wait for approval anyway. I appreciate the offer though. |
For you, it is a learning expreince. We all think every one of our shots is stock worthy. Feedback from your peers helps. For us, we don't take valuable review time to answer each and every email sent by photographers who don't understand why we didn't love your shot as much as you did.
| Quote: |
Just curious... are the people doing the critiquing on that forum "reviewers"? If not, and the review process is a totally human process by the reviewers, then the opinion of those on the forum regarding my photos don't really mean much in getting images accepted on SS. |
The reviewers have a set of guidelines we review by. The forum is a very good place to learn from people who have had rejections and know our standards. We do occassionally jump in, but in general, we feel that the people who are helping you with your shots, are right about their opinions. |
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riffmax
Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 3102
Location: Florida, USA
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:40 pm
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Well, it seems we have all learned a lesson here. On my part, I admit I "selectively" forgot seeing that bullet in the terms and conditions. That doesn't make me any happier about the concept, but it IS there in black and white, so there's not a whole lot we can do, is there? I hope it will just make me a better submitter - improve my ratio (which is slightly better than 50%).
I sure won't rekey anything that's already up there, tho!!!
Maybe we need to start a "Lousy Keyworder's Anonymous" support group! LOL! - I can hear it now - "Hi. I'm Riffmax and I'm a Lousy Keyworder!"
Not trying to trivialize anybody's feelings on this at all - just trying to lighten it up a little. Forgive me!!! |
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RosaMystica7
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 267
Location: New York
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:51 pm
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| riffmax wrote: | | On my part, I admit I "selectively" forgot seeing that bullet in the terms and conditions. That doesn't make me any happier about the concept, but it IS there in black and white, so there's not a whole lot we can do, is there? |
It's not really the whole concept of auditing that upsets me (people randomly going through older photos to see if they hold up to newer standards)... it's the whole adding keyword process - that our approved photo has to be a red X for a matter of days and then may be rejected, simply because we wanted to improve the keywords. I still don't understand why that's necessary just for keywords. If they want to audit, fine, it's their website... but using the adding keyword process to do that is what upset me. I don't understand why it'd be so hard to make the photographers happy by adding a keyword queue, and continuing to audit in other ways.
| riffmax wrote: | | Not trying to trivialize anybody's feelings on this at all - just trying to lighten it up a little. Forgive me!!! |
No, thanks for trying to lighten it up. I try not to get upset at internet things because, after all, it's "just words on a screen." But this really got me annoyed. So I'm grateful for the laugh. |
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essa667
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 109
Location: Orlando, FL, USA
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:58 pm
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| reviewer wrote: | | essa667 wrote: | | I wish these policies had been more clearly defined in the Photo submission area previously other than SS can remove any photo at any time at their discretion. It would have saved me a lot of frustration, time, and maybe the photos that I had in my gallery that apparently at least 9 "humans" thought were acceptable until they were deemed unacceptable without any notification from SS. |
We are a new company. We are just forming firm policy.
| Quote: |
As for putting them on the critique forum... what is that going to do for me or SS? It's either going to prove SS right in removing my images or me right that they were acceptable in the first place, but I'll still have to resubmit and wait for approval anyway. I appreciate the offer though. |
For you, it is a learning expreince. We all think every one of our shots is stock worthy. Feedback from your peers helps. For us, we don't take valuable review time to answer each and every email sent by photographers who don't understand why we didn't love your shot as much as you did.
| Quote: |
Just curious... are the people doing the critiquing on that forum "reviewers"? If not, and the review process is a totally human process by the reviewers, then the opinion of those on the forum regarding my photos don't really mean much in getting images accepted on SS. |
The reviewers have a set of guidelines we review by. The forum is a very good place to learn from people who have had rejections and know our standards. We do occassionally jump in, but in general, we feel that the people who are helping you with your shots, are right about their opinions. |
Dear reviewer:
I didn't mean to insult you or to pass by your suggestion to use the critique forum. I do strongly believe that is a positive way to get suggestions from other photographers on ways to improve.
What I was commenting on specifically, was the response for me to put my photos that had been originally approved, then later rejected up on that forum. The only opinion that matters for those is the opinion of the reviewers and will not help me to get my top sellers back in my gallery so I can make some more sales.
I don't believe that every photo I take or even submit to SS is perfect. But I don't think that they are all horrible either. I do my best each and every time I submit to submit my best work at the moment. We are all learning better techniques, etc. every day and I hope that I can do nothing but improve as I go along.
I have been VERY happy with SS and agree with most decisions and/or policies. I think my frustration with this policy of rejecting an already accepted photo was that I was not even notified. I had to find out by "accident" that one of my top sellers had been removed from the gallery when I went into my rejected photos que to see what from my last batch didn't pass the muster.
Thanks for all that you do and for the time to answer our questions and educate us so we can be better SS participants. |
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fncdigital
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 2159
Location: If there are any questions, direct them to that brick wall over there.
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 2:04 pm
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Actually, by putting a image in the critique forum EVERY admin gets a chance to see it and determine whether the reviewer who rejected it was justified. Until then the only person who has seen it or will see it is the reviewer who reviewed it.
Rejections have been overturned...we have no problem with admitting we were wrong.....but it will only happen going through the critique forum.
However, if you post in the critique forum and your Photog Peers see what admin saw to reject...you may never hear from reviewers. We try to let the community police themselves...that gives us more time to review so we dont see 400.."how long do i have to wait to be reviewed" threads pop up like they have been. ;) |
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andream
Admin
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 412
Location: New York, NY
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 2:17 pm
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| essa667 wrote: | | I wish these policies had been more clearly defined in the Photo submission area previously other than SS can remove any photo at any time at their discretion. It would have saved me a lot of frustration, time.... |
When a person signs up as a submitter to Shutterstock they are essentially entering into a contract with us. Anyone who has registered and submitted with us has agreed to our terms. PERIOD. We cannot be held responsible for people who did not read the FAQ carefully or did not review the guidelines before deciding to agree to our terms.
These are basic terms and there is nothing underhanded or tricky about them. This is a stock photography business. There are certain elements to our terms that are the way they are -- they're pretty compulsory.
Here, I have COPIED exactly from the FAQ several points that we have reiterated OVER and OVER again:
1) "My photo got rejected, what can I do?
Unfortunately we cannot provide details on why a photo was rejected unless we did in the rejection email you received. Since we receive thousands of photos a day, your best bet is to check the Top 100 Downloads to see what we would like, or visit our forums to discuss your photo with other people. We only provide a rejection reason if the photo can be changed and resubmitted."
2) "Can I upload any photo I want?
We have very strict guidelines that determine what photos you can upload into our system for sale. Please visit our Guidelines Page for more information.
3) (AGAIN!!) My photos got rejected, what the heck do you want???
We understand this can be frustrating - and we do provide tools for you to learn exactly what sells in the wonderful world of stock photography. We suggest studying the Top 100 Most Downloaded Photos and speak with other photographers in our Forums to get a better idea of what sells and what we accept.
4) Can I remove a photo I submitted?
Yes. Any photo you submit can be removed by you at any time. Removal is immediate and not reversible.
AND:
5) http://submit.shutterstock.com/guidelines.mhtml
including:
"These guidelines may change at any time - please re-read them each time you consider uploading to ShutterStock. This page can be found within the 'Legal Documents' section at http://submit.shutterstock.com"
"We reserve the right to remove or reject any photo at any time for any reason from the ShutterStock library."
Then you write:
"I wish these policies had been more clearly defined in the Photo submission area previously other than SS can remove any photo at any time at their discretion. It would have saved me a lot of frustration, time..."
Honestly I feel the same way -- but I wish people would READ our guidelines before they say they wish the guidelines were more clear. I would not enter into or sign a contractual agreement before I read it over carefully ever. And it would have saved us alot of time and frustration if these terms and guidelines were actually read by half of our reviewers (I know some of you DO read them and I can tell).
I don't mind if a person makes a mistake or forgets a guideline at all -- but I do not think that it should be on us -- that we should be held accountable because you did not read a basic agreement. It is right there to read on the submit home page.
This is a business. If there is a photo that does not meet our quality guidelines on the site, we have the right to remove it. Our clients pay for quality images and if we get complaints or find that there is a problem with quality or organization of images, we have to fix it. That's that. It's not personal, it's business.
Andrea |
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essa667
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 109
Location: Orlando, FL, USA
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 2:34 pm
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Point taken. End of discussion from me. I'll just try harder from now on.
I hope my questions have not influenced my shot at getting new photos approved. I feel like I have angered and frustrated the reviewers and that was not my intent.
Thanks for your time. |
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andream
Admin
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 412
Location: New York, NY
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:20 pm
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No definitely not-- we do not review based on questions or opinions a submitter has raised in the forum.
Besides -- we have tons and tons of submitters...so you would really have to piss us off :)!!!
Seriously though -- I understand your concerns but you do not have to worry about what you have written on the forum affecting your approval rate. If this was the case, the forum wouldn't be very productive at all. We just ask that people respect and attempt to understand that we have certain guidelines that we must stick to and that sometimes not EVERYTHING is our fault :)...
I think you do understand this and I hope you will continue to submit and learn from the forum because as much as people seem to want to steer clear of it (? - this I don't know why) -- it can be extremely useful. We have a lot of really experienced, kind and helpful contributing photographers!!
Thanks,
Andrea |
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RosaMystica7
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 267
Location: New York
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:31 pm
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| andrea wrote: | | I hope you will continue to submit and learn from the forum because as much as people seem to want to steer clear of it (? - this I don't know why) |
Perhaps others are also afraid of something happening here affecting their gallery. I know I've thought about it more than once. |
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andream
Admin
Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 412
Location: New York, NY
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:21 am
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| RosaMystica7 wrote: | | Perhaps others are also afraid of something happening here affecting their gallery. I know I've thought about it more than once. |
We prefer submitters to raise their concerns in the forum as that is exactly what we have created the forum for.
What we are trying to explain, and have tried to make clear, is that writing to our tech and sales support system to ask about specific reasons for rejection is not an effective way to understand rejections or learn about technique.
Asking for these specific rejection reasons is ineffective on multiple levels:
1) We have thousands of submitters submitting thousands of photos. We cannot give each person a detailed and specific reason for rejection -- it is simply not feasible.
2) THIS is the MOST important point -- the reviewers are NOT the people answering the support e mails so writing to support does not make sense. Support does NOT know why anyone's photos were rejected. Support does not review your photos so they are not the right people to ask about rejection reasons. They simply DO NOT know.
It is not fair for people to keep writing to support and asking them why their photos were rejected and assuming that support is sending people to the forum to be disrespectful or vague or to cast them aside. Support sends people to the forum because that is where you will get the best information and advice!!! Here you can post to ask reviewers and other great photographers questions or do a search for threads on your specific question.
We just want people to be comfortable using the forum because it is a great resource. I don't know why a person would feel as if something they brought up in the forum would affect their gallery anymore than the same question asked directly to our support system....
In either scenario a submitters gallery would not be affected -- we just ask that submitters respect that the forum and support are two different things and were created for two different purposes.
Thank you,
Andrea |
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HJahangiri
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 327
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Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 10:24 am
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I have seen the ShutterStock reviewers reconsider their decision on a case-by-case basis where the photo was posted under Critique and enough photographers agreed that it should be given another look. They don't have to do that, but they have been awfully reasonable when people follow the suggested protocols.
More often, the photographers offering critique in the forum can help clarify the reasons for rejection and offer solid advice for avoiding similar problems in the future. This is a great community, and one of the reasons I prefer ShutterStock over other sites I've tried. The more experienced and professional photographers here are generous with their time and willing to share their expertise - few, if any of them, put on airs and act like they're superior to those of us just starting out. And I don't care how experienced you are, there's always more to learn, unless you've just shut off your brain.
As for repercussions from posting questions and concerns in the forum, it'd make no business sense for ShutterStock to reject great photos just because they were irritated by something said here. (That's not to say they wouldn't rightfully terminate someone's account - or at least their forum access - if they were abusive, but I've seen NO evidence of retaliation for speaking one's mind or questioning a decision.) |
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njezzo
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 7
Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 8:39 pm
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| Quote: | | Firstly, we are currently training many new reviewers and once in a while they will make the very human mistake of toggling the wrong button. Human error happens. |
No wonder I've got around 14 rejected images (out of 16) recently which is my worst rejected/accepted ratio ever, with this reason: "Not Approved: Not stock oriented composition or subject, see forum and FAQ"
The funny thing is.. those images are making quite good money in another stock site..Hope they can learn fast. |
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